Jehoshaphat Allenlyon: Versatile Nigeria-Based XR Developer and His Mental Health Innovation Called Thea
Kim Bullock and Faaizah Arshad speak with Jehoshaphat Allenlyon, a seasoned XR professional with over eight years in software engineering and product design, about his unique journey into the XR space and revolutionary work developing an AI-powered suite called Thea to support remote worker mental health.
The following is a transcript of the episode:
BIO
Jehoshaphat, a seasoned professional with over eight years in software engineering and product design, excels at crafting innovative solutions across domains. His passion for leveraging engineering and design skills shines through in tackling complex challenges and delivering high ROI user experiences. Notably, he has worked on groundbreaking projects, including a 10-minute VR experience on U.S. workplace gender bias. His portfolio features a VR app that transforms interactions with autistic children using Interactive Virtual Humans and reinforcement learning. His brainchild, Thea, an AI-powered suite for desktop, mobile, and VR platforms, revolutionizes remote worker mental health support.
Kim Bullock
Hello, and welcome back to Psychiatry XR. I'm joined by my co-host Faaizah Arshad. Hi, Faaizah!
Faaizah Arshad
Hi Kim. I'm so excited to be here!
Kim Bullock
Yes, I'm excited too. We're really excited to have Jehoshaphat Allenlyon. Jehoshaphat is a seasoned professional with over eight years in software engineering and product design. And he excels in crafting innovative solutions across all sorts of domains. His passion for leveraging engineering and design skills shines through in tackling complex challenges and delivering high return on investment user experiences. And notably, he has worked on groundbreaking projects including a 10-minute virtual reality experience on US workplace gender bias, and also in my lab, producing an XR-enhanced protocol for behavioral activation in adults with depression. His portfolio features a VR app that transforms interactions with autistic children using interactive virtual humans, and reinforcement learning. His brainchild, Thea, an AI powered suite for desktop, mobile and VR platforms, is described as revolutionizing a remote worker mental health support. So welcome, Jehoshaphat.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Thank you, Kim. Thanks for having me.
Kim Bullock
Yeah. I'm so glad to have this chance to talk to you because I know we work together. But I just had so many questions about you and wanted to know you even more. It seemed like we never had enough time. So, this is a great time that we have now just to really focus on you. And I really wanted to understand more about who you are and how you became so skilled, you know in this XR software engineering and how you found yourself in the behavioral health space. And just for context for our listeners, I think it was a little less than two years ago that I met you Jehoshaphat through our Stanford Psychiatry and Immersive Technology Consortium (SPIT-C) network. Somebody had mentioned you when I was looking for someone to help me with this Stanford Translate Grant because we're building this simple mobile app for guiding a virtual reality protocol. You would think at Stanford, we'd find somebody who could build an app. Couldn't find anybody. We couldn't find anybody in the Silicon Valley that could do it. We were asking around who could build a mobile app that could also be converted at some point into an XR app via Unity in a Quest headset. And we searched the world. And even though you were located in Nigeria, you were the only one that could help us. And I thought how strange it was that, you know, we had to like really hire out this skill halfway across the world. And would love to know more about your journey to get your skill set, and maybe even taking us back to your childhood and educational story and walk us how you became so skilled that a university in Silicon Valley, half a world away, would seek you out because of your talents.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Thank you so much. Thank you for your kind words. So originally, I grew up in a small village in north central Nigeria, where I did not have access to the Internet until 2008, when I was almost graduating from high school. Yeah, so that was when I got access to the Internet.
Kim Bullock
No way. Wow.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Yeah. But prior to that, when I was about the age of 12/13, I got introduced to computers. And then from that moment, I became addicted to computers, so I started spending a lot of time on the computer, learning how to use different packages, started learning how to program. But while I was doing everything, I still had it in mind, that someday I wanted to be a neurosurgeon. Because the community I grew up at , you are either a doctor, a lawyer, a pharmacist.
Kim Bullock
Haha. I see.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
So, in high school, you decide to either become a science student or an arts student. So that's the point you can choose where you want to focus and how you want to streamline your learning as you go on. But I decided to do science because I always wanted to be a neurosurgeon. And that was largely inspired by the book the, Gifted Hands, the Ben Carson story. So, it really inspired me. I’ve always wanted to be a surgeon. So throughout high school, while I was doing computing things in the background, I spent a lot of time studying to make sure that in college, I would get to study medicine and surgery.
Kim Bullock
Wow.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
But fate had something else in stock for me. And in 2008, we had a group of Canadians that came to my school in the little village I was schooling at, a Lasallian school. Then they brought Internet to the school as a project. So, I got introduced to the Internet, which now expanded my opportunities. I got access to the Internet, I started learning a lot of things online, studying more and preparing more for life in college to study. But a year later, which was a final year in high school, I completed my high school diploma, but to study medicine in Nigeria, you need physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, to get admission to the University to study medicine. So, here's something that I prepared for all my life. I also wrote my final exams, the qualifying exams to get to the University came out. I passed that, but the physics I needed to now get admitted— my physics was withheld by the examining body. So, for no reason, my physics result was not released. So, there was no way I could get admitted to study medicine without physics.
Kim Bullock
What? Oh!
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Yeah, so there are two options. It’s either, I have to take a year off, and then prepare to rewrite or I have to wait till they release my physics.
Kim Bullock
I see.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
So, when that became the option that I had, my dad decided, “Okay, you have one year to spend to prepare to either resit or for when they release it.” So, my dad decided, I have a friend who is a doctor, let's go to him and then he can take you to a school where you learn some things about public health in the next one year. And then within the one-year period, you would have been prepared enough to rewrite the physics examination. I said, “Okay, let's do it.” So, we went to a neighboring town to meet the doctor friend. When the doctor friends saw me, he had some information about me from my dad prior to meeting him. So, when he saw me, he told my dad, “You said, this is your son, and he's very good with computers.” My dad said, “Yes.” He told my dad, “Instead of him studying medicine, right, let him go and study computer science because the future of medicine is going to be heavily reliant on computers. And computer scientists will have a huge role to play in the future of medicine.” So my dad said, “Okay, that's interesting. Let's give it a try.” So my dad said, I should go to a technical school, spend one year studying computer science, and then if I change my mind within that one year, the year I can also prepare for switching to medicine is still the same in that one-year timeline.
Kim Bullock
Yeah.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
That's okay. What is there to lose. Let me give it a try. I ended up enrolling to study computer science. A year later, I realized that, “What have I been doing all my life trying to study medicine? Computers is what I was actually born to do.”
Kim Bullock
Ah!
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Because while I was there, I realized what I could do with the computers. I got to know that I could build apps. I could build products that people could actually use to solve their problems. That was when I told my dad, “I want to stick with computing,” and then I ended up studying computers for six years. And finally, in 2016, I graduated. I finished my undergraduate studies studying computer science with a concentration in human computer interaction and artificial intelligence.
Kim Bullock
Wow.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
But the turning point that brought me into XR happened between late 2015 and the release of the Microsoft HoloLens in 2016 or so. So, it was my final year in my undergraduate program, and then we had this seminar in human computer interaction. The professors in-charge will give you a topic. And then we talk about that topic, we study and research the topic and then make a presentation. Somehow, two weeks before that, I got an email from Microsoft product about the release of the Microsoft HoloLens. And I was studying about the Microsoft HoloLens, reading about Microsoft HoloLens. And then my professor gave me virtual reality as my seminar topic to research and make a presentation about. It can only be destiny, right? So, this was 2016 in Nigeria. I am doing a presentation on virtual reality. Like try to think about this. So, I did a lot of research. That was where I came across the paper that was being worked on at the University of Southern California, where it talks about, “It's only a computer: Virtual humans increase willingness to disclose.” I think that was it. I saw that paper from University of Southern California sometime in 2014. So, through my research, it crossed my mind, “Okay, this is interesting.” So, humans are more willing to disclose when they are talking to virtual humans. Something that I have experienced myself, because there are some conversations I would like to have, that I would not want to have the conversation with my parents or someone else because the person could judge me.
Kim Bullock
Yeah.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
They don't know what I'm feeling. They don't know my stories. They will just judge me, based on where I'm coming from. After the presentation, I decided that, “Okay, I'm going to build my career along this line of virtual reality, virtual humans, because I already have the background through computer science, human computer interaction, and artificial intelligence.”
Kim Bullock
Yeah.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
So, most of the skills I needed, I’ve already developed these skills because prior to that 2016, I've built a lot of mobile apps and web apps. And at that point, I was already getting bored of building web and mobile apps.
Kim Bullock
Got it.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
But it was 2016, and I was living in Nigeria. To get access to VR headsets was one challenge. So, since I already had some experience with Unity and building games, I decided to learn more about Unity, and even go deeper to build upon the knowledge that I had. But I quickly realized that I needed the headsets. There was no way I could afford the Microsoft HoloLens in 2016. But then, sometime in 2017, I now realize that Google released the cardboard platform. And then there was a Google Cardboard. So, I ordered a Mock HMD from Amazon. So, it's one of those headsets that you put an Android phone or an iOS phone inside. And then you build the app for the iPhone or the Android phone, slot the phone into the headsets to make VR happen. So, I used that for a while to learn to put my skills into use to build some apps. And then finally, sometime late 2017, I enrolled into a training from Udacity, a Silicon Valley company, where I spent the next six months really building virtual reality applications for desktop platform that are powered by the Oculus Rift. And, yeah, and the HTC Vive.
Kim Bullock
Where did you do this? Or how did you find that?
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
So, I found out about the training online. Udacity is a learning platform like Coursera.
Kim Bullock
Oh yes. Udacity.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Yeah.
Kim Bullock
Okay, got it.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Yeah. So, I was learning on Udacity, but at some point, I needed to use the Oculus Rift or the HTC Vive for the project I was working on. So that was I realized that Judith, who is a pioneer of the XR space in Africa. She runs Imisi 3D, which is an XR lab in Nigeria. They have a lab, it's equipped with computers and VR headset, and then the opening for the community, anyone can come in to experience VR. So, I realized, “Wow, that was interesting.” So I got there one day. I experienced VR for the first time, fully immersive VR, with the Oculus Rift. I said, “Okay, this has opened my mind to bigger opportunities because now I've seen the extent to which I can solve problems using the platform. So, I started building from the lab. So, at the end of my workday, my full-time job at 6pm, my full-time job is nine to five. Within five to six, I go to the lab, and then I tried to experiment and build software with the Oculus Rift they had in store. So, I did that for a while, until 2018. I decided it's time to resign from my full-time job and concentrate on XR. So, I stopped building web apps, I stopped building mobile app and decided to focus on building for VR and augmented reality. So, it was within that period as well, I realized that there was a lot of stigma in my community with regards to people who are, who are on the autistic spectrum, to the point where children who are autistic, most of them their parents find it difficult communicating with them. And then children who are not autistic, their parents tell them not to play or associate with autistic children because a lot of them even think that autism is a communicable disease. Some think it’s a curse, others see it as a spiritual problem. So how can we change how people think and treat people on the autistic spectrum in my community? And I realized that the best way to put someone in another person's shoe is with VR. So that's something that will really solve a problem beyond solving my personal problem. Because after the research I saw from University of Southern California, I started building things for myself, “Okay, can I build a virtual human that I can talk to, I can have some conversation with this virtual human in VR? The conversation I can have with my parents or my friends, can I have with this agent?” So, with the skills I gained building that for myself, I said, “Okay, let me move this forward and build more.” So, everything I learned from the days I was in high school, to my undergraduate days, all the skills, everything I saw them coming together because the same C sharp I've been using for a while, Unity that I’ve been programming with, those are the skills I also needed to build for VR. And that's how the story from wanting to be a neurosurgeon, and then my physics getting withheld, landed me in VR.
Kim Bullock
Wow, that's an incredible story. I love this story. I'm so glad that we made the time to do this podcast and dive into your fascinating story and all the serendipity. And yet, it seems like destiny that that physics exam was lost. And so.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Yeah.
Kim Bullock
What are you doing with your time right now?
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
So, from the various experiences I had building for some companies that I worked on some projects in Silicon Valley, for some companies all having to do with VR, and the one with gender bias…
Kim Bullock
Uh huh.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Those that had to do with other forms of mental health scenarios, those that do with putting someone in that person's shoes, those have to do with exposure therapy…
Kim Bullock
Uh huh.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
I've worked on those, and then sometime during the pandemic, I realized that a lot of people were working from home. And a lot of remote working was going to be a thing. Then after the pandemic, people started going back to work, but a lot of people still decided to stay and work from home. So, to make it easier for myself and the experience I had with the pandemic because that was a scenario and a time where there were a lot of conversation that needed to be had. But we can't just talk to anyone because people were dealing with all sorts of things. People's mental health were off the roof. A lot of issues that people had, that they were hiding from their friends and families, now that they are locked up together with these friends and families, all those challenges are open for everyone to see. But with this stigma, people still cannot communicate because people cannot tell their story because of that fear of getting judged. So, I decided to do some research. I sent some questionnaires out. So, let's build the product now based on a virtual human. It will run on the phone. It will also run in VR headset. So, this time, it is no longer for me. I'm releasing this to the world. Everyone can use this, they can have a full-blown conversation with this virtual human. And this was inspired by a research I saw from what Microsoft did in China that was very successful. But then they had to shut it down later. So based on what I read about the technical implementation of that, I said, “Okay, let me make something that everyone else can use. And people will not have to keep all those issues bottled up.” So, I was primarily trying to answer the question, “Who do people talk to when they need someone to talk to without getting judged?”
Kim Bullock
Got it.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Then I sent surveys out to friends and other people in my network across North America, Europe and the UK. Then I realized that this is a problem that people needed a solution to. So, I started working on the app Thea, which is what I've been working on full time, even before the project that we worked on together.
Kim Bullock
Ah.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
So right now, Thea is that place where remote workers can come to, to transform their mental health.
Kim Bullock
Got it.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
In the long run, the app is going to be mobile, web, desktop and VR and also on AI because from the research I realized that there are those who wanted to use the virtual humans only on their phone. There are those that wanted it on the web. There are those that wanted it on VR headset, where they can see a full-fledged human that they can have a conversation with.
Kim Bullock
Yeah.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
So, I realized that it's not going to make a lot of sense if I build the app just mobile for instance. Then there are a lot of people that need this problem solved. They will not be able to access it based on the user research and the interviews I conducted. So, what I'm working on fully right now is Thea, trying to make it that go-to place for remote workers, when they need to transform their mental health. So, it is that suite of app that has mental health solution built in. So, you can talk to a therapist, if you need to talk to a physical human through video, through chat, and through audio-only communication. But if you are the person that you don't even trust humans, you prefer a machine, there's also a full-blown AI that you can talk to.
Kim Bullock
Yeah, there’s AI.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
And if you prefer group scenarios, you can have peer-to-peer sessions with other users. And then there are also scenarios where you can meet in groups, and your mental health scenario can be dealt with. So, everything was built into this platform. And all of that came from the idea I had, and the data I got from the research that I conducted. Because at the end of the day, I realized that there are people in the community, people that I interviewed who wanted that problem solved. They were not ready to talk to a psychiatrist. They just wanted to talk to a computer because they don't trust humans.
Kim Bullock
Yeah, it all comes from that tendency to self-disclose to a computer over a human, that tendency.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Exactly.
Kim Bullock
And self-disclosure is so therapeutic and can lead to feelings of intimacy. So yeah, that makes sense. There's a thread of that self-disclosure, kind of going throughout your work. So, wow, blown away to hear so much from you. I know when we worked together, you know, we're focused on one thing, and everyone's kind of quiet. And so, to hear all this and your narrative, is such an honor. And so, you are pretty well positioned to kind of talk about too, since you have this skill, what do you think about the evolution of these digital mental health mobile phone apps because there's so many now? And do you have any predictions or thoughts about how all these mobile phone apps for mental health will converge or use or change into an XR technology? Or what do you think about the future?
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Since no one knows the future, but with data, we can predict the future, I see a future where more people going full blown XR, but we first need to deal with the barrier to entry. Even though a lot of people want to go full blown XR, and everything maybe in VR, or in AR, the barrier to entry will be one of the things that will hold a lot of people back. And then the issue of privacy— one of the issue and the concern I faced working on Thea for instance. During the research phase, people were concerned about their private data. So, I see a future where, in as much as a lot of things will go into XR, there will still be those that would prefer being on mobile, on the iPhone or whatever phone, they would still prefer being on mobile. So, I see a lot of the younger generations going into more XR because there'll be more comfortable as that platform will be a platform that works well for them. But it's one thing when you see a full-blown virtual human and you can have an interaction with this person, you can have conversation with this virtual human, there's a level of immersion that you get from that, that you can’t get from just seeing a flat screen, a 2D screen. So, I say I think it will converge in XR, but there will still be a lot of room for working on mobiles.
Faaizah Arshad
This makes me wonder, can you talk about how receptive you found people to be towards using XR in your own community or in Nigeria? Because I know you kind of talked about how when you first discovered programming and this new realm of developing innovation and technology for medicine, you talked about how like your father was also surprised and I just wonder how receptive are people to using XR innovation? Is it common to see companies adopting what you build, you know, XR applications?
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
It's not common, not yet. And I think that's largely due to the barrier. Because it’s Nigeria— a lot of people cannot even afford an Android phone that can really do AR, not to mention buying a VR headset. Because a lot of people buy a phone first to solve their problems in terms of communicating with family members and friends. So right now, a lot of people that go to malls and open spaces where VR are made available for people to try out, the focus is mainly on games. And even companies, they are not investing in XR. Like, I can tell you 98% of the work I've done in the past four or five years from Nigeria, they were not for Nigeria companies working on XR. Because a lot of the focus is still on mobile and web. And that's largely because of the community and the access that people have. More people have access to mobile phones here. More people still have access to the web. There are more people using even feature phones than those using smartphones.
Faaizah Arshad
Okay, yeah, I didn't know that XR isn't very commonly used across Nigeria. But I think from what you're saying, you know, it makes sense that more commonly mobile applications are being used. I also noticed that in addition to being a software engineer and a VR developer, are you an educator for STEM? Or can you talk about your educational efforts with a VR?
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Great question. So, what I realized when I was learning, the barrier to entry first was not from the aspect of access to devices. Access to the equipment was one thing, but access to the knowledge was another. So, I decided that the time I spent and the resources that I had to spend to acquire the knowledge, a lot of people will not have those resources to acquire the knowledge. So, any effort, every opportunity that I have, I try to make sure that others can get access to the program. From my own experience, when I enrolled in the Udacity program, the program was to be a six-month program, I think it was about $1,000 for each term. $1,000 right now is about a million Naira. That is a lot of money. And between that period and now, the Naira has been devalued a lot. So, you need more dollars to solve the problems that you could solve with less dollars before. You need more Naira to get more dollars to solve the problem that I needed to solve. So, the amount of money that I spent, for instance, to acquire the skills, not a lot of people could afford to spend that amount of money. So, every opportunity that I have to spread that knowledge, I take advantage of those opportunities.
Faaizah Arshad
Just to quickly follow up on that, what advice would you have then for students who are interested in self teaching themselves? Is there any widespread advice that you can give about like learning product designing for other students in your community?
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
So, if resources are available, let's say you want to learn about product design for XR, or you want to learn about VR development, you want to learn how to program for VR, there's so many resources on Coursera that you can get for free just by auditing the course. So, you get to learn the skills without getting the certificate because at the end of the day, it is the skills— that's what matters. Not the certificate in this sense. So, you can audit courses on Coursera. And if I'm going to learn again from zero, I will take full advantage of Coursera. And that is the advice I have for anyone. There's a wealth of knowledge on Coursera, everything you need to learn, and it's free.
Kim Bullock
That's really great advice. One last question. What challenges did you find or do you find working internationally and cross culturally? Like I know we work together, and of course, there's the time differences, the Internet issues. I know there's things like conversational style and the number of pauses between and you know, New Yorkers and Californians often don't get along because of their conversational style. New Yorkers talk really fast, and Californians are slower. What are some challenges you have found working internationally and cross culturally and do you have any advice or things you think people should think about when they do those sorts of projects?
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
That's a good question. Yes, the first one was Internet, which was the big one. But like I previously said, Internet is now cheaper. But another major challenge is electricity. If you don't have the resources to put in place ways to serve yourself with electricity, that can be a major challenge for someone who is trying to work internationally. So, if you are from an environment where access to electricity is thin, then it is something you need to deal with, which was a challenge I had. Also, initially, I had a lot of issues with the accent.
Kim Bullock
Oh, uh huh.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
A lot of people could not… Yeah, so issues with accents in terms of you, I pronounced some things. And there's a different way the person from New York understands the same thing from someone else from Europe, because in Nigeria, we learned in British English. The English is British English. So initially, it was hard to switch between British and American English when I'm communicating with those in North America.
Kim Bullock
Yeah, there's different dialects and accents. Yeah, got it.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
But it is easy with time. You will quickly catch up. That is what I have to say to anyone who's facing that type of challenge.
Kim Bullock
And I thought we worked together really effectively, and it didn't stop us. Okay.
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Yeah.
Kim Bullock
Well, anything else you'd like to say? Or you think listeners need to know?
Jehoshaphat Allenlyon
Now to my listeners and everyone, thank you for listening. Thank you for having me. And whatever it is you're trying to do with XR, trust me, you can do it! If I can do it from Nigeria, you can do it from anywhere you are in the world.
Kim Bullock
Yeah, that's really good advice. Follow your dreams and your visions. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jehoshaphat.
Faaizah Arshad
Thank you!
Kim Bullock
Yeah, it was such a pleasure speaking with you. And that's it for this episode of Psychiatry XR. We hope you gained a new perspective on using extended reality in healthcare and thank you so much for listening. This episode was brought to you by Psychiatry XR, the psychiatry podcast about immersive technology and mental health. For more information about Psychiatry XR, visit our website at psychiatryxr.com. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and tune in again next month to hear from another guest about XR’s use in psychiatric care. You can join us monthly on Apple Podcasts, Twitter, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Just a reminder that Psychiatry XR was produced by myself Kim Bullock, Faaizah Arshad, and Jessica Hagen. And please note that this podcast is distinct from my own clinical, teaching, and research roles at Stanford University and the information provided is not at all medical advice and should not be considered or taken as replacement for medical advice. And this episode was edited by David Bell, and music and audio was produced by the talented Austin Hagan. See you next time!